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Author Topic: ~Religion~  (Read 8137 times)

SPRKH

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~Religion~
« on: February 27, 2011, 04:30:08 PM »
 :2pro:

Da Fat Cat

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2011, 04:41:14 PM »
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 04:42:49 PM by Da Fat Cat »
...I remember my early puberty, used to masturbate to the newly released HD model pack that came with the Half-Life Blue Shift video game.

ErebusTheDark

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Religion. What's yours? What are your ideas/opinions?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 04:58:17 PM »
To start, I should point out the fact that I've been brought up Catholic, so I've been spoonfed their doctrine for years. I don't necessarily agree with a lot of it.

Let's see
There's really no way to be sure that any religion is right. Think about it--many wars have been started on account of religion. Bin Laden openly declared "Holy War" on the United States. To me, it seems like Islam is a terrible religion. There's a section in the Qur'an (their bible, bscly) that says their greatest goal in life is to convert others to Islam. You use any means necessary to convert them. If they don't comply, you can kill them. How does such a terrible religion get so many followers?

Yeah, I think God's there. But. One thing I've never understood is the concept of sin. Why does this deity define morality? And why would this God sacrificing his only son magically save us all? It's not like he loses this son forever, according to the Catholic church he's up in heaven with the Holy Spirit too. Who comes up with this stuff? And...don't they say we are all "God's children"? Yeah, this Jesus character, God's son, suffered terribly...for us. Doesn't make much sense to me. How does his suffering make up for thousands of years of humans doing "bad things"? Sure, I probably don't think the things different people have done are right, but hey, who's this "God" character to say what's right and wrong?

Interestingly, the Catholic church says that there's no contradiction between the theory of evolution and the bible. Actually, with Catholicism, the bible is not taken literally, unlike most lutherans and baptists believe. No man lives eight hundred years. They weren't even using the Roman calendar, how are they measuring this shit? Stories like Noah's Ark, Cain and Abel, and most iconic, Adam and Eve...well, they never happened. Is there any evidence that around 3000 BC the entire earth was flooded? Adam and Eve. Um. Lol? Natural selection is a ridiculously slow process, it's not like the first humans just magically appeared one day. Though biblical texts seem to indicate where the Garden of Eden was. Man can create deserts, the area was probably just..poorly farmed.

I dislike how the Catholic church is so tightly organized and ritualistic. It gets stale pretty quick. How does many people singing in unison help people get to "heaven," a promised place of eternal happiness? Speaking of eternal ideas, heaven and hell are very much inspired by the Graeco-Roman concepts of the Islands of the Blessed and Tartarus. Many christian concepts were deliberately created in a similar fashion to existing ones, in order to get more people following.

Also, seen these shows about people who have been clinically dead for 5-10 minutes, but were revived. All had a..dream of a place of intense happiness, i.e. a meadow stretching far as the eye can see. Interesting.

What's the deal with hell anyway? Would God send his very own creations to a place of eternal suffering? Most if not all evil people in the world are/were psychologically abnormal, not something they can necessarily control.

Try to think of this. Before you were born. There simply has to have been some kind of consciousness before that. How could your consciousness magically come into existence? Before you existed. How strange is that to think about? And when you die, your consciousness can't simply disappear forever, can it? Why would everything that makes you who you are, or at least your existence, your consciousness, disappear at death? That's terrible to think...there has to be more.

I almost want to believe that we are reincarnated, with the same consciousness, but of course no recollection of anything from a previous life...and God facilitates all this? I really don't know. I believe in God, I just don't buy into all the Catholic shit. I know there's a God...so much evidence points to it. Or, at least there's a divine being out there who somehow started the chemical processes that created life on earth. Something like that. Jesus. He's been proven to have lived and been a real person, and though, probably many stories about him are exaggerated, I believe he must really have been God's son. And dying somehow lets people get to this heaven place. Or something. I dunno.

So... what are your beliefs? Opinions?

SPRKH

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2011, 05:20:57 PM »
Quote from: ErebusTheDark
Let's see
There's really no way to be sure that any religion is right. Think about it--many wars have been started on account of religion. Bin Laden openly declared "Holy War" on the United States. To me, it seems like Islam is a terrible religion. There's a section in the Qur'an (their bible, bscly) that says their greatest goal in life is to convert others to Islam. You use any means necessary to convert them. If they don't comply, you can kill them. How does such a terrible religion get so many followers?

Obviously. That's why it's religion. It's about believing something that isn't tangible, or can be objectively proven. Also about the Islam, it's easy to take texts out of context, you're basing your opinion on only one segment? Here, I can do the same with the Bible:

Luke 19:26-27
26“He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

There, Jesus said to kill nerds who are not willing to worship a carpenter as their god. How is this different from the "terrible" Quran?

Quote from: ErebusTheDark
Yeah, I think God's there. But. One thing I've never understood is the concept of sin. Why does this deity define morality? And why would this God sacrificing his only son magically save us all? It's not like he loses this son forever, according to the Catholic church he's up in heaven with the Holy Spirit too. Who comes up with this stuff? And...don't they say we are all "God's children"? Yeah, this Jesus character, God's son, suffered terribly...for us. Doesn't make much sense to me. How does his suffering make up for thousands of years of humans doing "bad things"? Sure, I probably don't think the things different people have done are right, but hey, who's this "God" character to say what's right and wrong?

For someone who was "spoon fed" with the Bible you seem to know very little. Yeah it's wishy-washy, sending his "son" (some say Jesus was god in human form) in order to save mankind from himself. Basically Jesus is more of a vehicle or a doctrine that would give you an access card to heaven if you follow his "teachings".

Quote from: ErebusTheDark
I dislike how the Catholic church is so tightly organized and ritualistic. It gets stale pretty quick. How does many people singing in unison help people get to "heaven," a promised place of eternal happiness? Speaking of eternal ideas, heaven and hell are very much inspired by the Graeco-Roman concepts of the Islands of the Blessed and Tartarus. Many christian concepts were deliberately created in a similar fashion to existing ones, in order to get more people following.

Yeah, I agree with my grandfather's view; if you are religious, don't go to church. IMO, it's more of a personal thing, a decision on how you want to live your life. People in the church have the potential to detract you from your faith, or feed you with their own interpretations of the text you don't necessarily agree with. Rome is full of assholes.

Quote from: ErebusTheDark
Also, seen these shows about people who have been clinically dead for 5-10 minutes, but were revived. All had a..dream of a place of intense happiness, i.e. a meadow stretching far as the eye can see. Interesting.

All? I seriously doubt that. Intense happiness? I've seen plenty of religious "documentaries" about people who died and went to hell/purgatory, motivating them to change their life.

Quote from: ErebusTheDark
What's the deal with hell anyway? Would God send his very own creations to a place of eternal suffering? Most if not all evil people in the world are/were psychologically abnormal, not something they can necessarily control.

God made people to worship him, because that's something he can't do himself. Or something. Therefore he is making certain demands, otherwise you're faulty and need to be destroyed, except with destroyed I mean suffer for all eternity. At any rate, I don't know how (a) god could punish a person for not believing in him, without giving people compelling evidence of his existence (a book written in medieval times with multiple major revisions over time does not count).

Quote from: ErebusTheDark
Try to think of this. Before you were born. There simply has to have been some kind of consciousness before that.

No.

Quote from: ErebusTheDark
How could your consciousness magically come into existence? Before you existed. How strange is that to think about? And when you die, your consciousness can't simply disappear forever, can it? Why would everything that makes you who you are, or at least your existence, your consciousness, disappear at death? That's terrible to think...there has to be more.

Just because you can't imagine something to be like it seems to be, doesn't mean that it's impossible. The human mind simply cannot comprehend certain concepts, such as (absolute) nothingness or infinity. I personally believe there's nothing after this life. We're a complex plant, we die and that's it.

Quote from: ErebusTheDark
I almost want to believe that we are reincarnated, with the same consciousness, but of course no recollection of anything from a previous life...and God facilitates all this? I really don't know. I believe in God, I just don't buy into all the Catholic shit. I know there's a God...so much evidence points to it.

What evidence?

Quote from: ErebusTheDark
He's been proven to have lived and been a real person, and though, probably many stories about him are exaggerated, I believe he must really have been God's son.

There's 0 compelling evidence that Jesus ever existed. 0.

Quote from: ErebusTheDark
So... what are your beliefs? Opinions?

God is supernatural and by definition cannot be proven nor disproved by any conventional, scientific means. This makes me an agnostic. I do not believe in an omniscient/potent, divine entity that has set everything in motion. We are too dumb to comprehend how everything was set in motion.

I have no issues with any religion, as long as you keep it to yourself. I believe that no ancient book, written in a cultural and technological context so different from ours, should be taken literally to the letter. My perception is that the text will have to "speak to you" personally and that you'll have form your own understanding without external interference from religious heads.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 05:22:47 PM by Sporkeh »

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2011, 09:38:11 PM »

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Re: Religion. What's yours? What are your ideas/opinions?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 02:44:43 AM »
There's a section in the Qur'an (their bible, bscly) that says their greatest goal in life is to convert others to Islam. You use any means necessary to convert them. If they don't comply, you can kill them. How does such a terrible religion get so many followers?

Pretty sure Christianity works along similar lines, likewise many people have died for refusing to convert to it. 

Stories like Noah's Ark, Cain and Abel, and most iconic, Adam and Eve...well, they never happened.
True, these probably didn't happen.  They are however common myths found in various Indo-European religions, so it's possible there is some historical precedent in the elder myths.

How does many people singing in unison help people get to "heaven," a promised place of eternal happiness?
This is probably what happens when frenzied rituals become "civilized".  > See Berzerkers

Speaking of eternal ideas, heaven and hell are very much inspired by the Graeco-Roman concepts of the Islands of the Blessed and Tartarus. Many christian concepts were deliberately created in a similar fashion to existing ones, in order to get more people following.
I've studied this in depth, basically Christianity was moulded around the preceding Heathen religions which it displaced.  For that reason Christianity in Northern Europe is very different to that of the Mediterranean, it's easier for people to accept change when things don't appear to be different.

Try to think of this. Before you were born. There simply has to have been some kind of consciousness before that. How could your consciousness magically come into existence?
This is where I must strongly disagree, you didn't exist plain and simple.  I don't want to go into detail about this because I studied the development of a fetus and it's extremely boring.
You simply cannot say that your conscious being has always existed, even the atoms which make up your body won't have always existed.  Fun story, if you leave the boundaries of the universe you physically cease to exist.

Why would everything that makes you who you are, or at least your existence, your consciousness, disappear at death?
This has troubled me since a very young age, but on the other hand it's made me thankful for the good life that I have.  Who knows, maybe in our lifetimes people will find a way to transfer consciousness into a digitized heaven?

I generally agree with what Sporkeh says, but I do believe that Jesus existed as a historical figure.  He appears in Roman records of the time as one of many prophets who would lead the Jews to salvation.  Mohammend is also one such Jewish prophet.

A lot of beliefs about Jesus are likely derived from Balder / Adonis, which in turn derive Western perception of Jesus.  Incidentally Jesus wasn't black or white, he was an Arab.

SPRKH

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 03:37:46 AM »
Addendum. My father is a strong atheist. My mother is a strong Christian (they're separated). I do not condemn any religion because I have seen the positive aspects of what religion can do to people. My mother went from being a depressed, suicidal psycho to just being a psycho with occasional fits of happiness. Though I do not know them all that well, the people at the church she goes to seem to be legitimate good people, and I think it's a good thing for her to hang around with them on a regular basis. People have completely changed their lives for the better because of religion. However, the darker sides shouldn't be ignored; religious heads are still human, and as such as susceptible to corruption (ie. literally paying off your sins in the Catholic churches).

I do think those fundamentalist assholes who think it's ok to butcher people in the name of their faith (be it Christianity, Islam or whatever other religion) should be shot on sight. They're fucking poison.

Also I believe that people who "feel god touching" them (you know, people who collapse on stage and such) are actually having some sort of minor epileptic fit that can be triggered when you're in the right state of mind (ie. music, having the belief that god is present, a pastor touching you in a certain way (which is by the way also a method of inducing a rapid state of hypnosis), people encouraging you to feel something specific). Some epileptics say that right before having an epileptic fit, they'll feel euphoric or being connected with god, it being almost a religious experience. It's also an intense emotional experience, that's why I THINK people who do not experience emotions with such an intensity (an by extension, men) are less inclined to be/become religious.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 04:03:48 AM by Sporkeh »

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 04:51:08 AM »
Reglion is just a thing made up to give people something to follow and live their lifes from, I don't have a problem with it if that's what people want to believe but it's all bullshit to me and I wont fall into it. As far as I'm concerned the only thing in existence is man, the animals and the Earth... shadows and dust.

/fin.

Florence

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 06:21:40 AM »
George Carlin - Religion is bullshit.

All that needs to be said.
"You think being gay is a choice? Then choose it: Suck my dick. Show me how it's done. You choose it - suck my dick - right now, and I'll videotape it, and then we'll put the proof that being gay is a choice on the internet for the whole world to see. Deal?"
-Dan Savage

Imperial Wizard

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 08:06:08 AM »
There is no way you guys are gonna keep it civilized for longer then 2 pages.
Ah?

ErebusTheDark

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2011, 02:58:41 PM »
Quote from: Sporkeh
Obviously. That's why it's religion. It's about believing something that isn't tangible, or can be objectively proven. Also about the Islam, it's easy to take texts out of context, you're basing your opinion on only one segment? Here, I can do the same with the Bible:
Luke 19:26-27
26“He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
There, Jesus said to kill nerds who are not willing to worship a carpenter as their god. How is this different from the "terrible" Quran?
Honestly, I need to do much more research into Islam before I make any statements about it.
According to the Catholic church, we're not supposed to take the bible literally--it's defined as a source of "moral and religious truth," rather than historical truth. Smart because there are two stories of King Saul getting killed. (...I think it was him. I'm not positive, correct me if I'm wrong)
Protestants typically believe the bible word for word and take it literally, and they believe it it to be the only source of religious truth.

Quote from: Sporkeh
For someone who was "spoon fed" with the Bible you seem to know very little. Yeah it's wishy-washy, sending his "son" (some say Jesus was god in human form) in order to save mankind from himself. Basically Jesus is more of a vehicle or a doctrine that would give you an access card to heaven if you follow his "teachings".

No, I've heard it all before, I get it, but trying to put it together logically is difficult.

Quote from: Sporkeh
(some say Jesus was god in human form)

People still believe that? According to the Catholic church that's a heresy, specifically the Arian heresy, was quite popular around the fourth century.

Quote from: Sporkeh
Yeah, I agree with my grandfather's view; if you are religious, don't go to church. IMO, it's more of a personal thing, a decision on how you want to live your life. People in the church have the potential to detract you from your faith, or feed you with their own interpretations of the text you don't necessarily agree with. Rome is full of assholes.

It's akin to an algebraic equation, really. Variables include the songs, the homily, and the readings. The majority is the same thing. Mass is supposedly a celebration. I've never felt celebratory there, it's always been a somewhat solemn event.

Quote from: Sporkeh
All? I seriously doubt that. Intense happiness? I've seen plenty of religious "documentaries" about people who died and went to hell/purgatory, motivating them to change their life.

I figured it was bullshit. I don't watch much television, maybe that's why I was so quick to buy into it.
Religious documentaries, what a crock of shit.
Purgatory. Where does that idea come from? It's not mentioned in the bible, or anything like that. Seems to be totally made up.

Quote from: Sporkeh
God made people to worship him, because that's something he can't do himself. Or something. Therefore he is making certain demands, otherwise you're faulty and need to be destroyed, except with destroyed I mean suffer for all eternity.

I would have to agree with you there, which leads us into...

Religion is bullshit

"...but he loves you." HAHA.

Quote from: Sporkeh
At any rate, I don't know how (a) god could punish a person for not believing in him, without giving people compelling evidence of his existence (a book written in medieval times with multiple major revisions over time does not count).

I would have to agree with you there. So many revisions and changes, it's a bit assenine after a while. It's amusing how many people believe the bible 100% literally and wholeheartedly. It's not like all these books magically came together...they were written by people, fallible people. Not some supreme deity. On top of that, people decided which ones were "authentic and inspired" (directly quoting notes given to us in my church history class) ... because people know what is and what's not divinely true.

Quote from: Sporkeh
Just because you can't imagine something to be like it seems to be, doesn't mean that it's impossible. The human mind simply cannot comprehend certain concepts, such as (absolute) nothingness or infinity. I personally believe there's nothing after this life. We're a complex plant, we die and that's it.

Kind of depressing, really.
It's like "going green," where people supposedly feel good because they're somehow helping the environment. ::)
On the same token, it's also a "feel good-ism" to believe in an afterlife of some kind.

Quote from: Sporkeh
What evidence?

There's 0 compelling evidence that Jesus ever existed. 0.

Maybe not as much evidence of God, more like Jesus. Yeah.
That's got some good points, is anything positive after 2,000 years? Not much, really.
Another thing--those rules, the ten commandments, that God supposedly gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, well...according to the Catholic church anyway, they were replaced by the beatitudes.

Quote from: Sporkeh
God is supernatural and by definition cannot be proven nor disproved by any conventional, scientific means. This makes me an agnostic. I do not believe in an omniscient/potent, divine entity that has set everything in motion. We are too dumb to comprehend how everything was set in motion.

But we might as well try to figure it out, right?

Quote from: Sporkeh
I have no issues with any religion, as long as you keep it to yourself. I believe that no ancient book, written in a cultural and technological context so different from ours, should be taken literally to the letter. My perception is that the text will have to "speak to you" personally and that you'll have form your own understanding without external interference from religious heads.

Amen.

Quote from: Sporkeh
Addendum. My father is a strong atheist. My mother is a strong Christian (they're separated). I do not condemn any religion because I have seen the positive aspects of what religion can do to people. My mother went from being a depressed, suicidal psycho to just being a psycho with occasional fits of happiness. Though I do not know them all that well, the people at the church she goes to seem to be legitimate good people, and I think it's a good thing for her to hang around with them on a regular basis. People have completely changed their lives for the better because of religion.
I would have to agree with that.

Quote from: Sporkeh

However, the darker sides shouldn't be ignored; religious heads are still human, and as such as susceptible to corruption (ie. literally paying off your sins in the Catholic churches).

Uh..you're saying they still do that? That stopped a couple hundred years ago, if I'm not mistaken.

Quote from: Sporkeh

I do think those fundamentalist assholes who think it's ok to butcher people in the name of their faith (be it Christianity, Islam or whatever other religion) should be shot on sight. They're fucking poison.

So you can see why I called Islam terrible earlier.
Muslims are mostly peaceful people, the extremists are really not as common as mass media would like us to believe.

Quote from: Sporkeh

Also I believe that people who "feel god touching" them (you know, people who collapse on stage and such) are actually having some sort of minor epileptic fit that can be triggered when you're in the right state of mind (ie. music, having the belief that god is present, a pastor touching you in a certain way (which is by the way also a method of inducing a rapid state of hypnosis), people encouraging you to feel something specific). Some epileptics say that right before having an epileptic fit, they'll feel euphoric or being connected with god, it being almost a religious experience. It's also an intense emotional experience, that's why I THINK people who do not experience emotions with such an intensity (and by extension, men) are less inclined to be/become religious.

:2pro:

Quote from: Alex
Pretty sure Christianity works along similar lines, likewise many people have died for refusing to convert to it.  

Could you give me an example?

Quote from: Alex
True, these probably didn't happen.  They are however common myths found in various Indo-European religions, so it's possible there is some historical precedent in the elder myths.

Definitely. Very different times and very different culture. Would people at that time, a majority of whom weren't literate or educated, have believed the true story of how the universe or the earth came into being? I think they're like Roman mythology, they use wacky stories as a way to explain things they didn't understand.

Quote from: Alex
I've studied this in depth, basically Christianity was moulded around the preceding Heathen religions which it displaced.  For that reason Christianity in Northern Europe is very different to that of the Mediterranean, it's easier for people to accept change when things don't appear to be different.

Makes sense.

Quote from: Alex
Fun story, if you leave the boundaries of the universe you physically cease to exist.
Mindfuck.
What happens at the edge of the universe? Can you go past it? Do you fall off?
Other universes. Yes? No?
This thread is branching. Who cares though, we'll keep it civilized...I hope.

Quote from: Alex
This has troubled me since a very young age, but on the other hand it's made me thankful for the good life that I have.  Who knows, maybe in our lifetimes people will find a way to transfer consciousness into a digitized heaven?

Reminds me of this book.[/quote]
I dunno how well that will make sense, from skimming the page it looks like it was written with an in-universe style.

Quote from: Alex
Mohammed is also one such Jewish prophet.

He liked some Jewish ideas, he liked some christian ideas. He said Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God.

Quote from: Alex
A lot of beliefs about Jesus are likely derived from Balder / Adonis, which in turn derive Western perception of Jesus.  Incidentally Jesus wasn't black or white, he was an Arab.

Once again, makes plenty of sense.

Can't help but poast: http://www1.legis.ga.gov/legis/2011_12/fulltext/hb4.htm

Interesting.

Reglion is just a thing made up to give people something to follow and live their lifes from, I don't have a problem with it if that's what people want to believe but it's all bullshit to me and I wont fall into it. As far as I'm concerned the only thing in existence is man, the animals and the Earth... shadows and dust.

/fin.

It seems to be a massive political tool.

What about aliens?
Kinda off topic, sure. But think about it. There simply has to be life, be it simple or complex, existing outside the earth. The chances are great. /random.

/thread

ftfy.

There is no way you guys are gonna keep it civilized for longer then 2 pages.

But we sure can try.

GOD FUCKING DAMNIT I DIDN'T ASK FOR A WALL OF SWEATY NERD'S TEXT. DO A FREAKING ONE LINE AD HOMINEM TO EREFAG AND I'LL BE HAPPY.

Little late for that.

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 02:50:12 AM »
Quote from: Alex
Pretty sure Christianity works along similar lines, likewise many people have died for refusing to convert to it.  

Could you give me an example?
Charlemagne was particularly notable for killing people who refused to convert, as were some kings of Norway.

Even within Christianity when Elizabeth I refused to allow Catholicism in England the Pope issued a death warrant; such warrants are commonplace in Islam.

Quote from: Alex
Fun story, if you leave the boundaries of the universe you physically cease to exist.
Mindfuck.
What happens at the edge of the universe? Can you go past it? Do you fall off?
Other universes. Yes? No?
I'm not a physicist so I can't really explain it in scientific terms, it's sort of akin to you vaporizing.  Except that every atom in your body disappears entirely; apparently it's physically impossible for something to leave the physical boundaries of a universe, but apparently in theory it is possible for another universe with totally different laws to merge with our own to make OWCH HEAD HURTS

Quote from: Alex
Mohammed is also one such Jewish prophet.

He liked some Jewish ideas, he liked some christian ideas. He said Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God.
Islam is still derived from the same Judaic religion; the point I was making is that Jesus and Mohaemed are examples of the many Jewish "prophets" who existed historically.

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 08:32:07 AM »

ErebusTheDark

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 03:11:14 PM »

I mean, as in, modern times. I haven't heard of extremist christians suicide bombing places.

Anton

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2011, 02:16:24 PM »
I know a lot of religious people, none of them have tried converting me either to judaism christianity or islam. ANd none of them have killed either. Their god's got to be ashamed of them.

That just came accross as trolling, what I meant to sort of hint at is that, to me people who despise religion come accross as taking more space thana ctual religious people. And from what I've seen more rabid anti-theists want religion gone than actual people of faith want to convert others. Also I think Islam is a brilliant religion, but that's a long story.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 02:22:43 PM by Anton »

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2011, 02:53:50 PM »
I hate those sweaty atheists who bother to aggressively point out all the inconsistencies in the scripture and dismiss another person's faith purely on those facts, without realizing that (for people who are not fundamentalists) the experience goes way beyond the scripture. They do not realize that saying that there's no god is potentially just as false/true as saying that there is a god, since there is no hard evidence to support either claims. They're exactly like obnoxious televangelists, with the only difference being the message they're trying to convey.

Dicks.

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2011, 04:42:44 PM »
That just came accross as trolling, what I meant to sort of hint at is that, to me people who despise religion come accross as taking more space thana ctual religious people. And from what I've seen more rabid anti-theists want religion gone than actual people of faith want to convert others.

Yes, they seem to flaunt their hatred of religion more than the Jesus freaks express their opinions.

Also I think Islam is a brilliant religion, but that's a long story.

You're in the right thread for it.


They're exactly like obnoxious televangelists, with the only difference being the message they're trying to convey.

:2pro: :2pro:, bscly.

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2011, 04:46:30 PM »
To be honest, having a mature discussion about religion is way above what I had expected of these boards, and myself. Gud job! (gud means god in swedish)

ErebusTheDark

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2011, 05:17:25 PM »
To be honest, having a mature discussion about religion is way above what I had expected of these boards, and myself. Gud job! (gud means god in swedish)

I'm trying to be open minded and honest.
I think this is relevant here...

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/856815-iran-london-2012-olympics-logo-is-racist-and-spells-zion

Seriously... the fuck?

...Wow. That's..insane.
Story I heard from an old teacher, she had a friend who was a strong catholic, had converted from being a protestant. He met up with this muslim guy, they were meeting up to discuss their faiths. The catholic started talking about Jesus being the son of God, and the muslim guy called it blasphemy and walked out.

They don't mess around.

Trilkin

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2011, 11:59:33 AM »
*Sigh* Too much text. Sorry, guys.

I am an ardent Methodist, though I used to be an atheist.

My lack of belief was more or less do to apathy in the beginning. I later came to despise religion and, in particular, fundamentalism. My atheism was its fiercest during the Bush administration, because (at least during my personal experience) this was when evangelical fundamentalism was at its worst. Pat Buchanan, Pat Robertson, Ted Faggard...erm...Haggard, Jerry Falwell, and the rest of their hypocritical ilk made me the angriest and most bitter.

Towards the late years of the Bush administration, however, I kind of softened. I took an interest in old myths and Biblical stories, merely out of interest and curiosity.

Eventually, I left my non-belief behind. Call me weak-minded, brain-addled, or insane if you want (honestly I've heard it all before, I don't care what you think of me), but atheism required too much effort on my part.
I returned to Methodism, which I had attended as a child, I now feel like I am embracing part of who I really am.

-I believe in God and the Devil. I read the Bible often and enjoy it greatly, but I'm hardly a Bible-thumper. I'm henothiestic (basically, I believe God exists in many different forms, instances, and places through aspects of himself). I think of him as more of an elemental force than some guy in the sky.
-I fully accept evolution and science and all that. Both science and religion work for me.
-I don't give a rat's ass whether or not someone else is of my religion or even has a religion. What concern is it of mine? They're not harming me. It's none of my business.
-I don't give a shit about trivialities. So some people masturbates/is gay/is foul-mouthed/etc. God has a whole universe to look after. I honestly can't bring myself to believe that his biggest concern is drinking (hey remember that time Jesus turned water into WINE?), orientation (yes, that's a threat to the universe and world right there :jerkbag:), cussing (hey remember that time Peter cussed...? Yeah, he wasn't cursed.), etc.
-I don't give a shit about abortion/anti-abortion issues. I'm in no position for it to affect me. I have no interest in romance or sex or kids, so it's not my problem. I'm sick to death of politicians using abortion/anti-abortion bullshit as a smokescreen to deflect progress and responsibility. My state is full o' these assholes. They swore on their mothers' graves that they would smooth out the budget and cut spending in response to the states floundering economy and education woes only to fall back on their favorite delay tactic: abortion/anti-abortion. Hey guys, people need jobs! Dump off your pseudo-moralistic, self-righteous, argumentum ad nauseam bullshit and do something that actually matters!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 05:31:36 PM by James »

ErebusTheDark

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2011, 04:59:01 PM »
*Sigh* Too much text. Sorry, guys.

I am an ardent Methodist, though I used to be an atheist.

My lack of belief was more or less do to apathy in the beginning. I later came to despise religion and, in particular, fundamentalism. My atheism was its fiercest during the Bush administration, because (at least during my personal experience) this was when evangelical fundamentalism was at its worst. Pat Buchanan, Pat Robertson, Ted Faggard...erm...Haggard, Jerry Falwell, and the rest of their hypocritical ilk made me the angriest and most bitter.



Hypocrisy is everywhere with this stuff, or anything, be it religion, politics, you name it. Pretty pathetic sometimes, but to many it's just a tactic.

I returned to Methodism, which I had attended as a child, I now feel like I am embracing part of who I really am.

-I believe in God and the Devil. I read the Bible often and enjoy it greatly, but I'm hardly a Bible-thumper. I'm henothiestic (basically, I believe God exists in many different forms, instances, and places through aspects of himself). I think of him as more of an elemental force than some guy in the sky.
-I fully accept evolution and science and all that. Both science and religion work for me.
-I don't give a rat's ass whether or not someone else is of my religion or even has a religion. What concern is it of mine? They're not harming me. It's none of my business.
-I don't give a shit about trivialities. So some people masturbates/is gay/is foul-mouthed/etc. God has a whole universe to look after. I honestly can't bring myself to believe that his biggest concern is drinking (hey remember that time Jesus turned water into WINE?), orientation (yes, that's a threat to the universe and world right there :jerkbag:), cussing (hey remember that time Peter cussed...? Yeah, he wasn't cursed.), etc.
-I don't give a shit about abortion/anti-abortion issues. I'm in no position for it to affect me. I have no interest in romance or sex or kids, so it's not my problem. I'm sick to death of politicians using abortion/anti-abortion bullshit as a smokescreen to deflect progress and responsibility. My state is full o' these assholes. They swore on their mothers' graves that they would smooth out the budget and cut spending in response to the states floundering economy and education woes only to fall back on their favorite delay tactic: abortion/anti-abortion. Hey guys, people need jobs! Dump off your pseudo-moralistic, self-righteous, argumentum ad nauseam bullshit and do something that actually matters!

Don't take most of the stories too literally, imo, so many are too ridiculous. I have to say I agree with most of this. The whole universe thing, definitely, we're nothing but a speck of dust. Watch Carl Sagan's "Pale Blue Dot."

So, being in a Catholic school, they talk to us about the dignity of human life, abortion is evil, etc,.
They argue that if Hitler had been captured, he should have been put in a high security prison. .. What a load of shit, that man was paranoid about Jews. He was even scared that he might have a partially Jewish ancestry.
In fact, one of the reasons HItler didn't like Mussolini's fascism is because he thought it was a Jewish conspiracy.

Abortion. Yeah, I think it's sad that these babies don't get a chance to be born and live, but honestly, with many of these situations, they'd be better off not being born. Pro Life people that it's a living creature, but hey, so is that ant you stepped on the other day. So are the bacteria that we kill with hand sanitizer. What makes humans special?
And, well, it's not like you can totally prevent it. Sure, you can say "don't have sex," but hey, we're only human. And there's no perfect condom that can be distributed to everyone on the planet free of charge.
Still others argue that you can put the child up for adoption. ... Do these people understand what pregnancy does to a woman's body? Why should she go through so much, only to give the child away and never see it again? That causes a lot of pressures and hormonal changes to the body. It's not healthy for a woman to go through all of that...for nothing.
Saying pro life is just idiocy. I used to be totally pro life, but now I'd say I'm pro choice because...it's logical.

Demographically, christians are typically liberals. Well, that used to be the case almost every time, but now since they're christian and believe in the whole pro life idea, and conservatives preach about restricting abortion, they jump on the bandwagon and talk like they totally agree with every word that comes from their mouths. A bit lulzy, but it's how people are.

Abortion as a smokescreen. That shit's so true I can't even express it with words.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 05:31:50 PM by James »

Trilkin

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2011, 05:59:56 PM »
You want a bucket of laughs, watch the comings and goings of my fine, fine state government. After swearing to fix the budget, promising to cut wasteful spending, they of course do not deliver. Instead they whine and bicker over an abortion sonogram bill.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/7455945.html

Would sonograms prevent abortions? I don't care.
Isn't every life precious? I don't care.
Isn't killing a child the same as strangling them with your bare hands? I don't care.

I DO NOT care about such things right now,  I haven't the time for it. These geniuses don't seem to realize their state is in a budget slump of nearly 30 billion dollars.

Philosophical musings are one thing, but bring up this tired debate is as pointless as trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It's all blatant lip service anyway. The fools are big on cutting insurance for disabled people.

Oh, an unborn child's life is precious, but a disabled man's life can be ignored.

I'm not even bloody kidding.

http://www.statesman.com/news/texas-politics/state-budget-cuts-keep-brain-injured-texan-out-1157689.html
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 06:04:34 PM by Trilkin »

ErebusTheDark

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 03:58:45 PM »
Government fuck up.

Sad but true.

Since we're here, and I'm going to a Catholic school, thought this would be lulzy to post.

Church History class. I have this hypocritical churchfag of a teacher who never shuts up about religious things. I suppose it's her job, but she just gets on my nerves. Anyway, she read us this story about some Jesuit's who were in a religious building a kilometer from the epicenter of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. 8 total. They all ended up unscathed or minorly hurt. I knew it was going to be bullshit from the start. Two seconds of google brings me the things proven untrue. Read the intro, you can really just read a couple of the middle sections, they're mostly contradictions, tbh. But the ending is really great. Shit hit the fan for another half-kilometer past a church/rectory that doesn't exist.

Alexandra

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2011, 04:34:13 AM »
Only Jesus can prevent damage from atomic bomb's fireball, shockwave, backblast, and fallout.

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2011, 04:59:23 AM »
A bunker is fine too

ErebusTheDark

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2011, 05:03:43 PM »
I like this.

Quote
*There is no mention of a miracle-working Jesus in secular sources.
*The Pauline epistles, earlier than the gospels, do not provide evidence of a recent historical Jesus.
*The story of Jesus shows strong parallels to Middle Eastern religions about dying and rising gods, symbolizing the rebirth of the individual as a rite of passage. He writes that Christian apologists have tried to minimize these parallels.

Quote
Biblical scholar I. Howard Marshall writes that there are "two views of the historical Jesus which stand at the opposite ends of a spectrum of opinion about him." At one extreme is the view that Jesus never existed, and that the gospels describe an essentially fictional person. At the other extreme is the view that the gospels portray events exactly as they happened, and each event depicted in the New Testament is the literal truth.[15] Marshall also explains that the term "historical Jesus" itself has two meanings: that Jesus existed rather than being a totally fictional creation like King Lear or Dr. Who or the Gospels accounts give a reasonable account of historical events rather than being unverifiable legends such as those surrounding King Arthur.

Definitely looking into things like this more. Having been raised with strong catholicism, I'm looking more at the atheist view and reasonings. Since I'm just learning about this I'm all gung-ho, in the future my thoughts may change, but at the moment I'd have to say I'm an atheist. As much as I don't want to be.

//

My high school is very homosexual and makes us take religion courses.

Here I directly quote my teacher: "Indulgences are a grace that God allows the church to administer. Through the sacrament of reconciliation your sins are forgiven, but they must be made up for. You have to prove to Jesus how sorry you are by doing good deeds. Jesus has offered the church graces to give to people, and this is supported by the communion of saints."

And here I thought it was more the protestants who had blind faith/made things up. This is like acid on the ears.

Burd!

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2011, 05:13:34 PM »
Keep in mind that it's just a theory. Don't abandon your faith on that basis alone. I think Spork brings incredible insight in this thread, especially his Kierkegaard reference on finding your own belief structure. So long as you, Jacob, are doing what you feel is right - that's all you need.

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2011, 05:28:00 PM »
TO COME BACK TO THINGS I HAVE MENTIONED BEFORE

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1867

WHATEVER

ErebusTheDark

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2011, 05:41:11 PM »
They talk like it's all true and 100% by the books. Maybe this whole atheism thing is just something I'm leaning towards because of my age and how rebellion is "cool", I honestly can't say. I'm researching both more.

I think Spork brings incredible insight in this thread

Definitely! Honestly his posts in this thread have really made me contemplate many things. I need to gather my thoughts.

Religion is comfort. So it seems. It's a way for people to find meaning in their life, a purpose, something to do. The Bible has general good advice, in my opinion, particularly the gospels; some places are just morally fantastic.

My friend shared this with me: "God" Tales Of Mere Existence
Really makes me wonder too.

I wish I knew for certain. The only way to find out is to die. And if you kill yourself, according to catholicism, you go to hell. But if none of it exists, what you did was entirely pointless. Stuck in curiosity until death. Life's a bitch that way.

Really can't wait for college. So interested in philosophy classes. Though I'll probably end up being an "IT guy".

Sorta off topic, but Ashiq, sometime you should look at your old posts on HIT, your early ones and as you matured. Huge difference!

//Spork, the idea that Paul had a seizure would certainly be the logical explanation. Would make sense today, seeing as historically, people often claimed things they didn't understand were of divine nature.

Also lol, less than 50 years ago there was a wing at mental hospitals for homosexuals.

Burd!

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Re: ~Religion~
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2011, 05:42:01 PM »
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1867

Interesting read. Though I lol'd at the end.

Quote
...giving us more insight into whether the soul is within the brain.

Wild idea - what if the soul is the mind? (Shown to be interchangeable esoterica in Decartes's work, but whatever I'm a faggot)

E/

Sorta off topic, but Ashiq, sometime you should look at your old posts on HIT, your early ones and as you matured. Huge difference!

Oh god, I'll be frank with you it's actually embarrassing to read alot of it. I was an elitist cunt who did alot of requests with the ego of a whales penis. Sorta' piles up on my personal regret list, but I dunno - doesn't everyone else have that kind of thing too? Internet is serious business I guess, I take things too seriously at times.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 05:48:43 PM by DiamonD »