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Author Topic: Ideological Discussion  (Read 4598 times)

Anton

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2011, 03:15:35 PM »
Gotta say you're a good writer, man. I stayed interested all the way through that huge post.

I can't really imagine having a system like that, but the part about not caring for interns is almost universal.
By the way, I can't imagine you having any really crippling disability from what I've seen, at least not hard enough for them not to be able to fit you in.

Simon

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2011, 10:53:04 AM »
Well it became quiet here

Trilkin

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2011, 11:38:33 AM »
Eh, it happens  :what:

Simon

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2011, 12:04:22 PM »
To be honest you falled like a nazi reference in a middle of a eugenics arguments, tends to calm things

ErebusTheDark

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2011, 12:57:25 PM »
Haven't really had time the last few days.
I'll have a reply up by saturday.

Trilkin

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2011, 07:32:56 PM »
To be honest you falled like a nazi reference in a middle of a eugenics arguments, tends to calm things
Huh?

I've haven't tried to Godwin the thread...yet.

Simon

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2011, 01:08:57 AM »
Huh?

I've haven't tried to Godwin the thread...yet.
Never said you did, what I meant to say is it's equivalent, you used a highly moral argument
Not to say your story was a lie or something like that, but the point is it happend this one time, doesn't meean it will happen all the time  
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 02:27:47 AM by Simon »

ErebusTheDark

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2011, 09:06:42 AM »
scratch that, your last two posts are absolutely 100% bullshit on just about every point, and your articles are heavily slanted towards inaccurate-ville. Not even worth correcting.

Nerd, if you want me to learn something, correct me. Or let me continue in my ignorance.
Neither one does their job particularly well, if you ask me.
With both government and business, it's not so much having great successes so much as having the results suck less than they potentially could have.

Businesses do a much better job at innovation and getting things done. It's rather disproportionate how many new and innovating medicines come from the United States compared to just about every other country on the planet.

When businesses become too large, their priorities tend to change. When businesses in certain industries become too large and have a monopoly, there's really nothing stopping them from becoming as inefficient as the government is.

Nationalization, especially in large countries, is hilariously inefficient.
Micro-nationalization, i.e. in cities, regions, states, whatever would work much better.

Not saying the government should be totally powerless; if everything was controlled by private corporations, the country would collapse into a sort of anarcho-capitalism.

Well, if you'll pardon by blunt language, the quest for rendering a service inevitably because a quest for the almighty dollar.
The more successful and strong a business becomes, the company becomes more concerned with the money and less concerned with needs of the customer.

Sometimes, yes. But not all businesses. Have Wal-Mart and McDonald's really stopped providing the services that they've always provided?
Sure, you could see buildings that are filthy, worn-down, etc, but who cares? You don't go to McDonald's or Wal-Mart for their cleanliness (at least I hope not).

I actually could widen the net and say this can apply to governments as well as businesses. The larger the body, the harder it is for resources to be evenly spread. Self-perpetuation becomes more important that making sure things run well and smoothly.

I don't say this to shoehorn my views or shoot you down, I merely state an observation.

Yep.

I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative. Silly titles have no worth.

I'm neither a capitalist or socialist. Both conventions are tainted by human nature and only too vulnerable to corruption. The way I see it, the stronger capitalism grows, the more the wheels spin towards corporatism. The stronger socialism grows, the more it degrades into communism.

I believe that capitalism in its basic form is an efficient system to an extent..not allowing company monopolies is key to keeping it stable.

Government running entire industries isn't going to work very well.
Especially with things like health care, which will just incur massive debt, and not solve any real problems.

I have no real loyalty to either party in my country. I see far more gray than red or blue. Partisanship is a crutch and delaying tool that incapable monkeys use to escape responsibilities and deflect progress. Truly, I care nothing for a politician's platform. If they can't do their job, then their words don't amount to much.

The American system is.. well, corrupt. It's a bureaucracy, and politicians typically care most about what will get them elected, not what will actually solve problems.

Blame the execusion not the idea

Give me an example of a country in which a socialized (nationalized? don't care what you call it.)health care system works efficiently and without garnering massive debts.

Maybe, just maybe, health care in general, shoudn't be about money, because we deal with human lives ? You know like in the Hippocrate's oath?
Taking care of people no matter what ?

Taking care of people =/= free medicine. And hospitals will take care of you if you're hurt/sick, even if you're not an American citizen. Sometimes it's even done for free or at reduced prices.
Take into account how much it costs to run a hospital on a daily basis. It's often more than one million dollars for a single day.

I don't want to have to pay to keep those.

Want.
You are not entitled to getting things for free.

Some can't, not a reason to leave them sick

I don't have a sports car. Some people who can afford a sports car have one. Why can't I have one? I deserve a sports car too!

Bullshit, you should see the benefit each pharmaceutical company do each year, most of their medecine is usesell crap barely getting over the placebo effects

So should the government create all of our medicine?
In the United States, 4% of all new pharmaceuticals come from the government.
96% come from other sources, such as pharmaceutical companies.

But nop, instead we have FREEDOM FREEDOM FREEDOM PRIVATE INDUSTRY LIBERTARIANISM over here in the states for healthcare, excluding Oregon and Vermont and their 'fuck you I do what I wants' and implementing single-payer healthcare at a state level. My personal favorite bit is that judges in the states have ruled that people don't have a right to die, which is just the icing on the cake for our shit healthcare, imo.

It would be much better if it was truly free market.

I should have known better. They were just using us for free labor.

I worked in Sterile Processing assembling surgical trays. I was good at it. Damn good. I built a decent rapport with the staff in the department as well and felt welcome.

Well, I should have known it was a sham. As time went on, the company communicated less and less with the program.
When the program ended, I stupidly stayed on, thinking that showing extra initiative would help me. Bah.
Months and months went by and nothing really happened. I started wondering if I was being had. I asked questions, but only got the excuse that they needed to "create a job description" for me. Yeah, they "wanted" to hire me, but had to adapt a job description to conform to my disbabilities. "Carving", they called it.

More time when by, more excuses that they were trying to "carve" the job.

Disgusting. It's unfortunate that companies sometimes operate like that.

I mentioned I was Methodist. Wooh, big mistake. Got my ears boxed, was told that he wouldn't answer my questions or let me take communion because I was not a Catholic.

Er, yeah. Really fits with "all are welcome," huh?
Needless to say, I didn't go back. Because that's what Jesus would do, right? "If you're not the same as me, go away!")

Religion and for-profit organizations should never mix. Ever.

So this executive guy and his stooge told me that they hadn't been able to find a job that fit me...even though I'd worked in the same department for 17 months. They gave me an offer, though. Custodial work. I immediately turned it down. To me, that was worse than insulting. They were then like "are you sure?" I angrily said I was sure and that I would never accept such a pathetic offer.

That was the end of that. I've remained bitter toward the company ever since.

It's not just me, either. Many people I known have been treated poorly by the hospitals staff. My mom's best friend took one of her sick children to the ER, or tried to. She was grilled with a bunch of off-the-wall questions, then sent off to wait. The wait was long and tiresome.

My sister was sick once and went there. The attending staff was rude and disinterested and was barely helpful at all.

They say they want to treat kids, but they really mean they want to treat really young kids who can barely talk or think for themselves. Better to walk all over them I guess.

It's because that gives them a better reputation in the public eye.
It's the same reason employers like to hire so that their company is more racially diverse. It makes the company look "better".
It's like they think race is the only thing that quantifies diversity.
My opinion on that is I don't give a fuck what your race is, I'll hire the best candidate for the job.

I'm not dead-on convinced that this is how most hospitals and companies operate. Profits first, customers second, employees barely worth consideration.

Is this a personal experience coloring my view of businesses? Yes.
Is it a subjective view? Yes.

But that hardly makes me wrong.
Personal experiences can make or break businesses.
If it's happened to me and my friends, it's probably happened to many other people.

Many smaller companies try to treat their customers well. If they don't, the customers won't like them, fewer customers, smaller profits. The larger a company gets, the less it seems to care about that, because they know in the long run losing a few customers won't make a difference.

There you go, a big boring-ass worthless rant. My examples. Bet you regret asking me, right?

Nah.
I never saw private businesses as omnibenevolent justice harbringers.

ErebusTheDark

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2011, 09:16:33 AM »
Addition to what was before:

Quote from: Anton
they may need healthcare more than anyone and that they could be denied that is just inhuman.

Quote from: Erebus
Do you know why many people don't have health care?
They don't want it.

Either they don't want it, or can't afford it.
I can't afford a yacht, why don't I get one for free? I WANT A YACHT. I DESERVE A YACHT FOR FREE.

Simon

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2011, 10:11:53 AM »
Oh this is going to be a pain in the ass to quote properly,

I don't have a sports car. Some people who can afford a sports car have one. Why can't I have one? I deserve a sports car too!
I can't afford a yacht, why don't I get one for free? I WANT A YACHT. I DESERVE A YACHT FOR FREE.
That's so fucking retarted, like a fucking Yacht is going to avoid my brains from exploding from too much blood pressure, but hey how about we don't have any police or army since it doesn't make money yeah people should defend themselves, can't buy a gun OH THAT'S TOO BAD

Quote from: Erebus
Give me an example of a country in which a socialized (nationalized? don't care what you call it.)health care system works efficiently and without garnering massive debts.
Again blame the execution not the idea, but hey since we didn't find a cure for cancer yet, I guess we should stop looking

Quote from: Erebus
Taking care of people =/= free medicine. And hospitals will take care of you if you're hurt/sick, even if you're not an American citizen. Sometimes it's even done for free or at reduced prices.
Take into account how much it costs to run a hospital on a daily basis. It's often more than one million dollars for a single day.
For fuck sake nobody said the medicine was free, why do you think you pay taxes ? In France a part of my salary is taken monthly, so I don't have to pay for my medicine or my doctor, does the doctor receive nothing in the end of course not

Quote from: Erebus
So should the government create all of our medicine?
In the United States, 4% of all new pharmaceuticals come from the government.
96% come from other sources, such as pharmaceutical companies.
Way to extrapolate, what I'm saying is that pharmaceutical companies make enough money like that, for products that are most of the time barely usefull if not dangerous, they are not going to die because you take a few millions on their income. Also I have no fucking clue of where you are going with that sentence since you raised two numbers (make that one since you can guess the other easily) without any logical path to construct an argument

I'll will leave the rest to the others

James

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2011, 10:59:01 AM »
Erebus are you in favour of making the police and fire services non "socialised".

SPRKH

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2011, 11:03:47 AM »
Lmao, comparing a person's well-being to extravagant luxury items.

I'm compiling a list of dumbass Erebus quotes.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 11:06:09 AM by Sporkeh »

Trilkin

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2011, 11:30:30 AM »
Answer: Suk Doctors - Elite practitioners able to treat virtually every ailment known in the universe. They are specially conditioned by the Imperial Suk Academy to be absolutely incapable of harm their patients or betraying trust (*1).
All you need to acquire their help is a few chests full of Hagal Crystals, Opafires, and Solaris. Hey, you may need healing, but you gotta pay first, 'cause that's how they roll.
Services come with a satisfaction guarantee from His Sublime Majesty the Padishah Emperor or your money back!!

*1 Warning: Not applicable if the practitioner's spouse has been kidnapped and tortured by evil floating pustular fat men and/or insane genetically enhanced assassins.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 11:33:06 AM by Trilkin »

ErebusTheDark

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2011, 12:34:42 PM »
Erebus are you in favour of making the police and fire services non "socialised".

At this point public seems like an ok option for the police, but as for fire services, that should stay nationalized.
A mixture of public and private for the police could work. Private police officers having to swear under oath to perform duties the same as a public one, etc. I really don't know.

I'm compiling a list of dumbass Erebus quotes.

That file's gonna fill your hard drive pretty quick.

Alexandra

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2011, 02:16:06 PM »
Quote from: Erebus
Give me an example of a country in which a socialized (nationalized? don't care what you call it.)health care system works efficiently and without garnering massive debts.
Again blame the execution not the idea, but hey since we didn't find a cure for cancer yet, I guess we should stop looking

It's even funnier because all he'd have to look at is any UHC system that's not Canada or Greece's and see that, really.

And I really only list Canada because they're still in that fucked up state where they're still worse than Europe/Oceanic systems but a league ahead of the US'.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 02:18:06 PM by Alexandra »

D3ads

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2011, 08:48:36 AM »
Proper lolled at this thread, The basic human emotion of wanting to live != wanting to buy a yacht :coolbiden:

Imperial Wizard

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2011, 09:25:26 AM »
Ok, who made Erebus rage quit?
Look who's talking  :joebiden:
Ah?

Editor

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2011, 12:51:14 PM »
Just removed the ability for you nerds to delete in your accounts in the future, it's annoying from even an archive standpoint.

Trilkin

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2011, 03:58:37 PM »
I'm running the show now, motherfuckers.

Godwin Powers activate!!!
Form of...PUNS!!

ZOMBIE HERMANN GOERING 2012

He'll fix the economy by putting some jackboots on the ground,
Schutzstaffel-ready jobs, and his revolutionary
NEIN/NEIN/NEIN Plan!!!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 04:07:33 PM by Trilkin »

Simon

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2011, 12:05:19 AM »
It's not a godwin point if it's obviously for the lulz  :joebiden:

Alexandra

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Re: Ideological Discussion
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2011, 12:20:20 AM »
It's not a godwin point if it's obviously for the lulz  :joebiden:

Considering the GOP candidates this election year, Goering would probably be a top contended. :coolbiden: