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Author Topic: Level design geometry help!  (Read 3074 times)

D3ads

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Level design geometry help!
« on: June 18, 2013, 06:01:47 PM »
How can I get a certain shaped brush to be part of a set of brushes that curve around? If it's a straight brush then I can get make a cylinder and portion it but with the kind of "wedge shape" I want to make rounded it would require something else and I have no idea how? Rotating and positioning the piece each time is not an option. Here's what I mean, sorry for the horrible diagram but I think you get the point?



I'm trying to make this (the piece with the rivets underneath);



You can see how I've done it with the straight pieces already, I'm basically doing that again but rounded;



It probably requires some kind of vertex manipulation I'm guessing, which I'm still utterly useless at...

Alex

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 09:27:18 AM »
Use the ARCH tool or the CYLINDER tool... I forget which one you should use off the top of my head

Basically those are tools within Hammer that allow you to create curved surfaces - you can even define the level of detail in them.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHwl9elsLI

Hope that helps (if just a little!)

D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2013, 03:25:49 PM »
Nope you've misunderstood me, I know how to use the arch and cylinder tool (what do you think I am, some kind of n00b? :P)

It would probably help if I show you what I want to do using the actual map itself...

Here's what I've made so far of the round part of the building just using basic cylinders;



Now that part circled is the basic straight version of the structure used on the other parts you can see and it looks like this;



Now see below that is what I want to do with it, ignore how horrible it looks since I've just cloned and manually rotated the structure several times so it doesn't match up properly. I want to have it like that but have it properly aligned to the grid and matched up correctly... if that's even possible?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 03:32:04 PM by D3ads »

Alex

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 03:56:30 PM »
Ahh.... yeah there's no easy way of doing this. Even 3DSMax this is hard to do :F

D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 06:44:57 PM »
See I didn't think it would be possible but I saw Suture's WIP map recently and it had some pretty complex geometry in it, some of which is very similar to what I need;


kaffikopp

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 09:13:34 PM »
Hi, new here (been lurking for a while though). Have sadly been away from mapping for some time but I'm going to get back into it very soon, and I'm pretty sure I knew how to do something similar to what you want to achieve here. If you haven't figured it out by the end of the weekend I might be able to help you out, just have to set everything up again first.

In the meantime, have a look at this tutorial by the great Quake mapper czg - it helped me a lot in understanding how to create complex geometry such as curved pipes.

Megan

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2013, 09:15:21 PM »
It's very much possible, but you'll need to do some serious vertex manipulation. Or you could use the triangle method, which involves cutting the pieces into triangular shapes to avoid the invalid solid shit, though you'll still need to use vertex manipulation (a lot less than the previous method, though).

D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2013, 10:50:04 PM »
Hi kaffikopp, welcome to the forums!

Well I suppose I could send either of you the relevant brushes and you could do it for me but I wouldn't really learn anything then? I don't know why but I really hate vertex manipulation and I can't get my head around the triangle stuff, it gives me a headache. Maybe I'm just a shit mapper :(

You could do it and then show me how you did it afterwards, that'd be useful...

Megan

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2013, 11:20:48 PM »
Sure, PM me the rmf and I'll steal it for mysel... I mean do it for you. :coolbiden:

D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 01:27:07 AM »
Here are the files, contained in the rar is the rmf which contains just the parts of the building you need (Yeah I aint giving you the whole thing :joebiden:) and relevant textures, these aren't final anyway so it doesn't matter much if they're in public. You should be able to work out what to do, don't worry about the piece that isn't joined to the curved hall, I need to edit the texture for that and then hopefully if you figure out the method to do what I need, I can apply it to that as well.

Anyone else who wants to try, go ahead! Any questions, fire away!

D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2013, 01:48:58 PM »
I forgot to say the arches I've constructed for the parts you're supposed to make are both there as a guide for matching up the pieces and for me if the custom geometry doesn't work out right. I didn't bother to texture all of the ledge with the rivets for now but it should serve as a bit of guide for when it comes to texturing that part... You'll notice that a little after the middle is nulled because the player wont see be able to see that.

D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2013, 06:20:35 PM »
Is anyone going to download the file then..?!

kaffikopp

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2013, 08:46:00 PM »
Sorry, haven't gotten around to setting stuff up yet, and am a bit busy with work this week. I'll take a look soon.

D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 05:32:56 PM »
No that's fine, it was more of a poke towards Suture than anything :coolbiden:

kaffikopp

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2013, 11:16:25 PM »
Alright, finally got around to checking it out and got it done. The process was kinda messy so I'm not really sure how I can best explain how I did it, but you'll notice I've moved the vertices of the original brushes around a bit - this is to keep everything on as large a grid as possible, at least grid size 4. I did try to work with the brushes as they originally appeared on the grid, but it was a complete mess as vertices constantly ended up on grid sizes under 0.5, making it impossible to properly adjust the brushes. It's much easier to adjust everything else, like completely square walls, to fit the curved arches and slopes and whatnot anyway, than the other way around - trust me, I tried, and got a mild headache.

I've included the rmf and bsp, which I compiled with HLFix and Vluzacn's tools (using Nem's batch compiler), to show that the brushes appear properly ingame. Feel free to use it as you wish.
I can try to write up a tutorial later or you can add me on Steam or Skype or something if you want, maybe it's easier to explain that way.

D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2013, 03:26:30 PM »
Oh thanks very much for doing that, appreciate it! I'll check it out when I next can and let you know what I think!

About the grid, I've always worked with the smallest grid possible and didn't really know that it would be an issue, I've certainly never had any problems myself!

Don't really use chat programs tbh, no time... I could do a skype sometime though I guess, I'll get back to you...

Megan

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 05:09:11 AM »
Sorry D3addies, I've been rather busy lately. I see I've been beat to it already though so, cool.

Alex

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 08:57:07 AM »
About the grid, I've always worked with the smallest grid possible and didn't really know that it would be an issue, I've certainly never had any problems myself!
I used to do that quite a lot too. Apparently you get better in game performance if you stick to larger block sizes (16x16?)

kaffikopp

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2013, 05:22:50 PM »
I used to do that quite a lot too. Apparently you get better in game performance if you stick to larger block sizes (16x16?)

There is probably something to this, like how e.g clipnodes and vis is calculated, but I'm not too knowledgeable about the technicalities. The primary reason I prefer to work on larger grids and being consequent with brush placements is that it enables a much smoother workflow and less clutter in the 2D views in Hammer. It also makes it a lot easier when working with advanced geometry, as I already mentioned.

D3ads: alright, but if you prefer, I can try to cook up some sort of tutorial - shouldn't be too hard.

D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2013, 05:33:48 PM »
Well done on that, it's pretty cool stuff! Though it's a bit fiddly with textures, since they don't all match up like they do when using arches.. bugger.

I used to do that quite a lot too. Apparently you get better in game performance if you stick to larger block sizes (16x16?)

Quote
There is probably something to this, like how e.g clipnodes and vis is calculated, but I'm not too knowledgeable about the technicalities. The primary reason I prefer to work on larger grids and being consequent with brush placements is that it enables a much smoother workflow and less clutter in the 2D views in Hammer. It also makes it a lot easier when working with advanced geometry, as I already mentioned.

Funny, I've never had anyone mention anything in all my years of level design about differences in grid sizes, I just thought it was purely a visual thing and whether you wanted to be more precise or not!

Quote
D3ads: alright, but if you prefer, I can try to cook up some sort of tutorial - shouldn't be too hard.

Perhaps a visual tutorial of images with some text underneath each one to explain the basic steps? That'd be best, something like the one you posted but less textual (forgot to say thanks for that btw, that'll be useful when I want to make some cool looking pipes!)

Sorry D3addies, I've been rather busy lately. I see I've been beat to it already though so, cool.

No worries dude, I just want to get the ball rolling on this thing, sooner I finish up the clean version, sooner I can work on trashing it :P

kaffikopp

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2013, 01:15:16 PM »

D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2013, 01:20:32 AM »
So sorry kaffikopp, I only just realised you'd posted the tutorial as for some reason the update didn't come up in the unread posts button! What can I say, very good tutorial and not actually as complicated as I thought it was! I haven't gotten around to doing anything more with the round part of the building as I've been working on other bits, but once they're done I'll go back to it and see what I can do with this technique.

Thanks very much, I shall reserve a place in the credits for you :)

kaffikopp

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2013, 07:23:44 PM »
Whoops, looks like I'll have to apologize as well, a month overdue reply - haven't been mapping much since I last posted.

Anyway, you're very welcome, glad to be of assistance. Have you made any more progress on the building yet?

I'm thinking about writing another tutorial too, as I discovered a method to skew textures in Hammer, if there's any interest.


D3ads

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2013, 08:27:36 PM »
Whoops, looks like I'll have to apologize as well, a month overdue reply - haven't been mapping much since I last posted.

Anyway, you're very welcome, glad to be of assistance. Have you made any more progress on the building yet?

I'm thinking about writing another tutorial too, as I discovered a method to skew textures in Hammer, if there's any interest.

No worries dude, are you the same kaffikopp on moddb btw?

Progress has been made, I'm almost done now! I'm working on the big dome of the building which is where your technique will next come in handy, I'll post some media soon ;)

Method to skew textures sounds interesting, tell me more...

kaffikopp

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Re: Level design geometry help!
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2013, 10:01:06 PM »
No worries dude, are you the same kaffikopp on moddb btw?

Progress has been made, I'm almost done now! I'm working on the big dome of the building which is where your technique will next come in handy, I'll post some media soon ;)

Method to skew textures sounds interesting, tell me more...

Yep, that's me.
Nice, can't wait to see how it looks.

I'll make another tutorial and post it here and maybe on TWHL as well or something.